How to Become an OBM and Land Premium Clients with Sarah Noked #273

Sarah Noked 0:00 It’s either like a values and red flag thing, or it’s like, oh my God, I’ve sold my soul to the devil for very too little, no money. Emily Reagan 0:14 If the OBM pack has been tugging at you, if you’re already leading and managing inside your clients, businesses. I want you to listen up. This episode is for you, because I’m talking with Sarah Noked of the OBM school. She has trained 1000s. She runs an OBM agency, and she knows exactly what separates the burned out implementer from the confident leader and the higher paid OBM we’re going to dig into what this job role is, what it pays, what are the hours? What are the red flags? What are the green flags? What is the unsexy part of the role? We’re going to dig into the identity shift that needs to happen for us to be able to take on premium clients at the strategic level. And what kind of clients are the best fit? Sarah is going to shorten, shorten your learning curve. I mean, that’s exactly what we’re trying to do in this online space. We’re very similar in how we started and how we grew our businesses. And I really think if you’ve ever been told you’d make a great OBM digital business manager, or if you’re curious what the next level looks beyond VA, especially if you you like operations, you like project management, and that comes natural. Sarah is going to bring bring it today on this episode, please go download her starter kit. Use my affiliate link, and if you do sign up for her OBM school, if you do decide to be in her program, please let her know you discovered her through my community and my podcast, I would be ever so grateful, because that affiliate commission, it adds up, and it allows me to bring on more cool guests and show you more niches my top blog on my website is about niches for virtual assistants, and I’m all about helping you figure out what is that next level for you once you’ve gotten started. And I also have training to help people start too. I love that. But when you can start specializing, when you can start honing in on what you’re good at, what your strengths are, what you bring from the past working world, you can really get into a place where you’ve created a dream business, a Dream service based business, and the world’s your oyster. There’s so many options out here. So Sarah’s gonna break it down. Let’s jump into it. All right, Sarah, welcome to the show. I am so excited to talk to you today about what an OBM is, especially because my audience is moving up and on into the management role of things. So let’s start at the beginning. I always ask the origin story, but that’s because we all come from such a unique background and end up online. So what’s yours? Sarah Noked 2:32 Take me back to 2009 when I had relocated from Canada to the Middle East, and I found myself living in a country where I don’t speak the language, and I was like, I will become a freelancer. And I feel like, at the beginning of my freelance journey, I made, like, every mistake in the book. I was like, side hustling with my corporate job for like, three years, you know, and like, not making enough money and not charging enough and not, like, really leading with what I know now are my strengths. So it took me a while, and again, granted. In my defense, this was like 2009 and I didn’t have kids at the time, and I knew that I needed to make this work, because I needed to have flexibility. It was really important for me to have flexibility. And I also I don’t fit into the mold of, like a corporate job. I also recognize that about myself, even when I had a corporate business development job, you know, when I moved here, I found a great job in English, awful, awful commute, but I was like, I could have been happy like that, but I wanted more, and it just took me on this magical, wonderful journey into becoming an online business manager and really getting clear on my strengths and my management skills, and in retrospect, all of these transferable skills I always had and always possessed. And so for me, like not to sound cheesy, but it’s really about paying it forward. At this point, I’ve had a, you know, a very successful agency. I have OBM school, and I’m really all about matching clients with their online business managers now, because I don’t have the bandwidth to serve everybody, and I know people need this kind of support. They just need to get it together. Everybody needs to get it together. Emily Reagan 4:13 Guilty, guilty. I think that’s so cool, because my business also started the same kind of like, need to help other people. I think that’s why we connect in that way, right? Yeah, and it was like, there wasn’t enough of me, and I knew some really smart women. I’m like, you do this. If I taught you online marketing and the ways of launching and digital products, you could find so many ways to help a business owner. So it wasn’t like this, like greed, like I got to make a course and make six figures. It just happened because people needed training and not everyone could fit on my agency so it’s full. Sarah Noked 4:46 That’s what’s so great about freelancing, is that it’s not a lot of high like, okay, it can be high stress. I’m not going to say it’s not high stress, but people always need services. People are always going to pay some amount of money to get back more. Their time in their day, if they’re at that level. So, you know, a lot of people in this industry will want to build courses and want to, you know, start things backwards. But the truth is, is that, you know, I learned about courses and, you know, selling stuff through working with clients and seeing how their back end. And so it was very interesting and so creative for me. And I really, you know, till this day, it’s almost two decades, and I love working with clients. I just, I love hearing their pain. I love knowing I can fix some of their operational problems. You know, I’m not like in the marketing freelance space, like you are, but I’m more like operation systems, like, let me help you clean that up so you can, you know, get back your time. Emily Reagan 5:42 Oh my gosh. I love that. I have a client I’m working with right now and doing her sales page, which is what went down today with Cloudflare. But side note, but just getting in with her, I’m like, oh, getting so excited. I’m like, I can think of all these ways I can help you, and you’re not doing this right and this right, and I can help you build that. But working with clients, it just makes me so happy. It’s so fun to have that impact. So I kind of straddle both worlds. I’ve just never had to really market myself as a sales page designer or like a CMO. That just always has kind of happened. I’m curious, did you skip the VA path entirely? Did you go straight to OBM? Sarah Noked 6:16 well, you know, I have to be honest, like when I made the move from Canada. I left and I sold a landscaping company. So I was very like I had that entrepreneurial spirit, although I didn’t recognize it. Then, in retrospect, I can feel these things, but I came with a lot of management skills. I completed my master’s. I did my MBA. I was working in business development, so I had, what, you know, if I was really accounting for my transferable skills, some really serious management skills, but I was in such a scarcity mindset, and I think so desperate to, like, make it work, that I was just saying yes to a lot of things that meant saying no to, ultimately positioning myself so I wasn’t calling myself a VA. I was a yes woman, and I was doing a multitude of random S, A, F, and at some point, I think I just was like, I can’t sustain this. I have eight clients on my roster. I am a big picture person. I’m very much in the systems. It’s very hard as an OBM to be managing all of this, and also these businesses actually don’t merit having an OBM. So that was the other distinction that I started to understand as I became as I like, developed my acumen for online business and entrepreneurship. And you know, all that comes with that, that we see it so pretty on the outside, but then you get to the back end and you’re like, say, what? How have you been making 40 or 50 grand a month? And like, you don’t even know what’s happening in your CRM or your email marketing tool, like, It’s bananas to me. So I sort of naturally was always an OBM, but I never called myself an OBM one, because I didn’t really know what one was back in the day. And then when I heard OBM, I was like, oh my god, this is me. This is what I’ve been doing. This is how I need to, like, be forever. And it has been forever. Emily Reagan 8:12 Oh my god. Okay, so for anyone like new listening to this world, which sometimes we have people who haven’t started their business yet, what is an OBM? Tell everyone what that even is Sarah Noked 8:21 So an online business manager is somebody who steps into a business. Now, it’s usually a micro sized business. I think when we’re coming from corporate, we’re imagining some big corporate, you know, gig, but it’s more of a micro sized business where, you know, could be an entrepreneur with a few team members, maybe not even any team members, like, sometimes they can’t keep team members, and they are at a point in their business where they can’t make any more revenue because they don’t have any more time. You know, it’s somebody whose visions align with yours, and it is somebody who is ready to delegate the management thing. So I think for me, I really started to understand who the client was in my journey of becoming an OBM, and so a big part of that is knowing who the client is, because it’s those businesses that require management services, and it’s those businesses that are more than willing to, you know, invest their money in having a support service professional who can take the big rocks off their plate. So, you know, I like to really look at it as somebody who sort of bridges the gap between vision and goals. And, you know, all of the things that make up the business to implementing. So an OBM sort of fits in there, and we help make things happen. We, you know, help make sure that quality is assured that we’re making decisions because we’re aware of what the vision and the goals are in the business. So it’s really a partner alongside a business that is in a place where their business model is ripe and they are ready to scale. And so it took me about three years, I think, because I was just sort of undervaluing myself to really find. Find a client, and I call them stepping stone clients, because they’re not no money Mary’s like, you know, there’s a dime a dozen. There’s many clients online, and I think I was just choosing the wrong people, because I would just work with everybody, because we’re heart of service. And so when I started to be more specific about who I was working with, it just really changed for me. And I don’t even necessarily think there’s a lot of VAs become obms, and I feel like that was my journey, in a way. But a lot of people who are like confident and recognize their corporate, transferable skills, life experiences, ability to manage and take charge, be in the big picture. Think strategically. You know also do fare very well. So yes, while VAs typically can, it’s not the same thing. A va is more of an implementer, where an OBM is more of like a manager and a delegator. So there’s, like, core differences that people sort of gravitate to. You know, we’ve got great VAs on my team. I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t change their roles to obms. I’ve got great obms that suck at implementing and aren’t so tech savvy, and, you know, aren’t so necessarily, like, as detail oriented as somebody who’s like, implementing the same thing over and over again. Emily Reagan 11:08 Yeah. Are there other titles out there that might be like, let’s talk about some of those. Because I, like, our industry is so jargony. It’s like being in the military again, all the acronyms like OBM Sarah Noked 11:20 Well you got the online business manager. And I like the OBM term, let me say, like, when you’re telling people what you do, you can’t just say, I’m an OBM. You need to explain the transformation. So, you know, OBM, Director of Ops, DOO, you’ve got integrators, you’ve got, like, I don’t know, there’s a million. What are some of the ones Emily Reagan 11:37 I think I’ve heard Digital Business Manager, like, just, yeah, like, all kinds of variations, yeah, or, Sarah Noked 11:42 Like, I knew, I knew. And I think also the thing is, is that not all the businesses that we work with are online. Like, I just finished a discovery call and a strategic planning session with a doctor who’s wanting to get more systems in his like, $7 million clinic. Emily Reagan 12:00 You’re like, Yes, please. Sarah Noked 12:01 I was like, Oh my God, where did you come from? Chat GPT. Like, I literally am getting clients and students from ChatGPT. It’s amazing. Emily Reagan 12:10 Oh, I love that. I that’s like, a whole nother topic. I know that will be for another, another podcast. I have a carousel plan about that. But this is why, and the whole argument of that is, this is why we need the marketing assistance to help us with the searchable content so that AI is, like, going through it Sarah Noked 12:26 It’s not taking away any jobs, it’s just making more specific jobs. Again, just like all of this SAS, like, if we said, oh, there’s all this service as a software, there goes my job. Like, hell, no, that’s just making me have more work. Emily Reagan 12:38 Yeah, okay, here’s the real big question, if I had to tell my mom what an OBM was, my mom still doesn’t know what I do, what would Sarah Noked 12:46 I know my mom doesn’t know what I do either Emily Reagan 12:48 What would you tell my mom? Sarah Noked 12:49 What would you say? I would say, like an office manager, like at a dentist, like a dentist office, you know, the office manager that makes sure all the things work and the clients stay happy, and the place is clean and organized, and the dentist feels like he can just focus on doing his dental work and not, you know, like that, yeah. And then, and then it’s like, well, but it’s online business, and, Emily Reagan 13:13 Oh yeah, I like the floss and the toothpaste and Sarah Noked 13:18 make sure that the toothbrushes are stocked for that, handing out to the, you know, person who’s got shiny teeth Emily Reagan 13:25 yeah, how does this fit in the marketing department? And I don’t know if I even told you this, but I spoke on Amy Porterfield stage this about hiring marketing project managers. And so there gets this funny area. You know, I know I’m in the marketing department, you’re in the ops department, but marketing and operations also intersects. And so how do you explain it in the marketing ecosystem? Because I’ve had people in my community say, like, how is this different? Or what is different about a marketing manager? And I’m curious, like, how you would answer it, because it does get murky, especially when teams are lean. We’re not talking we’re talking about those micro businesses. Sarah Noked 13:58 Well, you know, let’s just call the elephant out in the room like we freelancers and people in this industry are the only ones who care about those Okay. Clients just want things to get done. So as an OBM, you know, I’m managing the systems, I’m managing the ops, I’m managing the team, I’m matching, managing the launches, I’m managing the marketing and the metrics. Okay? And it’s really about the metrics for me when it comes to marketing as a system. So any sort of operational system as it relates to marketing, as long as it’s like a functioning, repeatable, standard, operating SOP type of system, then an OBM can manage it, you know, like a newsletter or social media, but when it comes to like marketing strategy, I don’t think that that’s necessarily in an obms forte, unless they’re an OBM like me, because I love digital marketing, and I’ve always, and we’ve talked about this before, I’ve always sort of tooted my marketing horn, because I think that it’s a great. A benefit to having an OBM. But not all obms are very marketing savvy. So I think particularly I am. I wasn’t always this way as I, you know, kind of understood what people were looking for and what what was driving results, you know. And I’m a marketer myself. I mean, I market my own programs, I run my own ads. So for me, it’s like a part of what I do, but it’s everybody’s, you know, everybody has their own special sauce. Like I always tell my students, I’m like, be uniquely you, if your corporate experience is HR, you know, like, we have this great woman, Leangela, and her, and she’s, like, amazing at HR. She came out of corporate and went all in on being an OBM, leaning towards the HR more in the team department. When I started off as an OBM, I was very intimidated by managing team, even though I had a landscaping business and teams of guys who did garden work. You know, I can’t manage team, so I think it’s an earn as you learn industry and marketing skills, project management skills, system skills, these are not unattainable. And it’s not like, it’s not rocket science, we’re not doctors, like, it’s not, it’s not that. I don’t mean to downplay it, but it’s not so complicated. It’s about being reliable and accountable and showing up and aligned with your clients vision. That’s all it is. Emily Reagan 16:16 Okay, give me a couple examples of systems that an OBM would manage. So I’m hoping someone would listen to like, Oh, I’m already thinking like that, or I might already be doing that, and maybe outside of the marketing department. Like, what are… Sarah Noked 16:29 something very operational, and something very typical is managing like the client care slash onboarding systems in a client’s business. So let’s say your client is a high functioning coach in some kind of amazing industry, and they have a very high level onboarding that, you know, requires automation, but also requires somebody keeping an eye on things, making sure that they’re getting all that they need, making sure it’s optimized, making sure it’s automated. So for a lot of a lot of OBMs, you know, a lot of what we do is we come in and we set up, and we set up these automated systems. And, you know, just like marketing, not all OBMs are techy, but then we’ve got very techy OBMs Who will get right into clickup, or right into Dubspot or whatever they’re setting up, and they’re, you know, they set that all up, and then they’re just sort of managing the recurring stuff happening. But I think onboarding is one, you know, there’s, there’s launch management is a huge one. And, you know, like, for example, in my business, we have a quarterly launch cadence. So, you know, it’s not like rinse and repeat, you know, I mean it to an extent. I’m not gonna lie. I mean, there’s templates, and we use more or less rinse and repeat, but there’s always a level of strategy and seasons and extra things to sort of strategize and plan into that. And that’s where, for a high functioning, visionary entrepreneur, they just don’t have the bandwidth for that. They’re like, you know, here’s what it is. Now go work it out with the team and make it happen. Some launch systems even, like, how you how your team reports metrics is a huge one. Like, feel like, you know, I’m always using metrics to to sort of tell the story in the business. So it’s not like, emotional, like, oh, you know, this lead magnet stop working because the page isn’t pretty. Or, like, you were talking about the sales page, you know? Like, yes, we can say it’s pretty, but there’s a lot of ugly AF sales pages that convert at a really high level, you know, yeah. So it’s like, there’s a story that I think is also really important to bring into the fold here, you know, and it, it’s something that I feel like as an OBM, I’ve really honed my skills over the years, and that’s also exciting for me. You know, it’s never, you know, can we agree that there’s never a dull moment with these clients? Emily Reagan 18:30 Like, have you had, yeah metrics. That’s something I really focus on in my school. Don’t send an invoice like, no matter what level you are, what your job title is without sharing the metrics of your work. And I’m thinking in terms of, like a community manager, right? You should have monthly reporter, your KPI tracking like this is the churn rate for us. This is how many jobs came in. This is your top referrals. And really gathering that data and helping the business owner connect the dots. Because I even me, I know better, but I’m spread so thin that I don’t always have time to pull them together. So I kind of see OBM as that little bit of oversight. Sarah Noked 19:09 Yeah, the oversight and again, not. If you’re have a small business, you’re making $3,000 a month, you don’t need an OBM on retainer. No. But if you’re making 10 or 20 or 40 or 50 or more, like I told you this doctor I spoke to, it’s making, like, half a million a month. It’s amazing, but, you know, and feels very chaotic. And so I find a lot of the times when I meet my ideal clients, they are almost doing a good job at being an OBM and recognize the importance and recognize the need for systems, but they don’t have time. And this is him. He’s like, I’m taking off two days every week now to focus on my operations and my systems. And I’m like, Oh my God. Like, think about all the money you could be making by serving your clients as a doctor. Like, that’s, I think, the realization that a lot of new freelancers and new obms don’t understand about the client at that level is that. It will pay a lot of money to get back that time, if it’s high quality and high value for them and they see ROI Emily Reagan 20:07 okay, so when I spoke at Amy Porterfield stage, a lot of people in that room were at 500,000 and I was like, Who’s on your team? And most of them had a VA, but none of them had the OBM. And I know they’re at that level almost. I want to give them credit. I don’t want to, like, take that away from them, but they’re at that, that level, like, Oops, oh my gosh. Now I’m making all this money, and things are a little bit of a disaster. So I’ve heard different numbers, like, 300,000 500,000 Do you have like, a sweet spot when you say someone should need an OBM? Sarah Noked 20:36 I think that. I think that someone who’s making over two, like, I usually say, like, if you’re making $3,000 a month as an entrepreneur, you could really benefit from bringing in an OBM to help you hire a VA, or to help you automate some of your systems, but not on retainer. So there’s a distinction, like, oh, we can serve a lot of people, but on retainer, the client ideally needs to be making more, like 15 to 20,000 a month or more, right? Because OBM retainer is typically $2,000 a month. So if you’re only making $3,000 a month, then it just doesn’t make financial sense for you. However, if you want to spend some money to create a plan or work on a small project, that’s a different story. Now, somebody who’s making $40,000 a month. And it’s like, you know, I can’t take two days off a week now to, like, do my operations, you know. And you know that if they had those two days extra in the week, that’s like, you know, eight days of making $1,000 a day, that’s $8,000 of time. You could get them back. So then you figure the math with your retainer, like, how much is that worth, you know, in terms of value, and those value based, you know, retainers, obviously don’t recommend doing that off the start, because you know what you’re getting into. And you know, that’s part of our onboarding as obms, you never know what you’re getting into, right? Emily Reagan 21:52 Yes, okay, I do want to hit on that, but let me ask you one thing that has kept, I think, people scared of hiring obms, and I feel like there’s such mixed information. I know every service provider is different, but do the managers actually do some of the implementation or, like, what do you coach them on? Like, what is that buzzy line? Because I also think you do need to have some task doers, some VAs on the team to help do it too. Sarah Noked 22:18 So I always tell people that it’s always a VA that comes in first, but unfortunately, a lot of the times, our clients don’t do a good enough job managing the VA. So the VA leaves and it becomes this, like vicious cycle for various reasons, like not having SOPs, or the VA not knowing necessarily what they need to be doing. So there’s always, always a level of implementation. You know, it’s, it’s just always going to be there. So there’s VAs on the team. And it’s one thing to be able to delegate recurring systems and recurring tasks to vas, but yes, like, I mean, there are times where OBS are very techy, and they will set up an automated system, or they will have to audit something. So there’s always a degree of implementation happening. You know, I think that as obms, it’s about really strategic planning. And so if you are implementing something, does it make sense for you, as the OBM at your rate, to implement that? Or should you hire so for example, if I’m using HubSpot, okay, HubSpot is not something that I’ve used in a long time, and I know it changes all the time, so I know probably to hire a HubSpot consultant or whatever. It’s probably like $200 an hour, but me, at my $100 an hour, OBM rate spending three or four hours doing this makes no sense financially for the business. So I think when it comes to implementing you have to always be you know, this is one of our manifestos, but like leaving the business better off then how you found it? If this isn’t going to benefit the business, then it doesn’t make sense for me to do this job. It’s not about withholding, or, you know, being a murderer, about the things that you need to do to prove your worth. It’s about thinking strategically about what needs to happen in the business. And I think that’s something that I really try to discern with students who are and obms who are trying to figure that out. Emily Reagan 24:00 I even see that as a CMO, and I’m going to put it in marketing terms, but it doesn’t make sense for me to be doing the posting, you know, like some of those level, I mean, they are no offense, sometimes $10 tasks, right? $10 an hour task. Sarah Noked 24:13 And furthermore, somebody needs to QA that that task went out with no that it was okay scheduled, well, that it went out on time that, you know, no one’s like, putting like, creepy comments on there. Like, there’s a lot of things that need to be QA even if the VA is doing and I always, I always tell everybody who will listen to me, like, you need somebody who can manage the people doing the things in your business. Otherwise you start running into issues where the email goes out without a first name field, geez, because Sally, the VA can’t check her own work. So there’s also, you know, when your business makes that much revenue, the systems are getting more complicated, and there’s more things going on. And that’s why you need to have people keeping an eye. Because you don’t there was, you know, the client stops sleeping at nighttime. They’re just stressed out about all these moving parts that are making them money. Emily Reagan 24:59 Yeah. Yeah, and people are in our little silos, and we talked about the oversight. So what’s one responsibility that an OBM should stop doing immediately? Or is there anything? Sarah Noked 25:12 Nothing really comes to mind. I think every business is very different, and I think you need to really think about what the client needs. So every time I meet a client, it’s like a different bag. You know? It’s like, this one likes to do this. This one likes to do that. So think it’s really about listening to what your client needs. And maybe the thing to stop doing is to stop, like, following this very task oriented especially if you’re a VA moving to OBM, one of the criticisms I got from a very favorite client of mine was like, she said to me, sometimes, Sarah, you’re just so task oriented. You just, you know, you’re like, blasting through these things. And I’m like, I’m like, Yeah, I can, like, get all this stuff done. I’m rocking and rolling, but I’m losing sight of, like, the bigger picture strategy. And I was like, Oh, this didn’t need to happen so fast. Or, you know, oh, we used resources to do that. But if I would have waited a week, I would have realized that it was no longer, you know necessary. So I think, I think recognizing that maybe pivoting and encouraging a client to pivot, and recognizing the metrics and seeing that you need to pivot, and knowing that you’re light enough on your feet to do that, is important in as an OBM. So just, I think not being afraid to open your mouth. I think sometimes you know myself included, like, I was like, does the client really want me to be a sounding board? And I know you must get this as a marketing person, like, does the client really want my opinion? Like, really they don’t know better, or they don’t know how this works. And that’s the other thing, you know, that’s, like, one of my biggest strengths. I love brainstorming with my clients. I love getting into all of it. And for a very long time I felt like I didn’t want to charge for that, because I was like, it comes so naturally and blah, blah, blah, and I recognize that it’s those natural strengths that I need to double down on and charge the most for. Because also, how many hours in the day Do we have a functioning brake power, right? But give my client two hours, I’m like, leaving very little in that reservoir for myself. Emily Reagan 26:59 Oh my gosh. Well, is there any part of the job that’s not sexy or not attractive? Like, just to flip it over. Sarah Noked 27:07 you know, I don’t know, because I’m very much a homebody. So I think if somebody likes to go out and, you know, be a little bit more social, like, I had an OBM when she was my lead OBM for like, six years, back in the day, when I had employees, and she went back to corporate, not because she wasn’t a good OBM, but she literally wanted to get dressed and put makeup on. And I was like, really, that matters to you? It doesn’t matter to me. And so I know that there, you like, different strokes for different folks. So I think that, like, there’s always a trade off when you’re an entrepreneur, like, it’s like, you know, it’s a little bit of a journey, you know, for better or worse. So it’s not for the faint of heart, and I think sometimes it can be very lonely, but then, like, so, for example, my husband will be like, Well, you haven’t left the house in two weeks, or you’ve been, you know, you haven’t seen anybody in two weeks. I’m like, you crazy. Just talk to Emily for an hour like, you know, like, you so, so, like, there’s like, you know, I don’t know. It’s like you have to make it work for yourself and for your family. I’ve got three kids. They are my priority, so being home for me makes me feel less guilt. I’m feeding them whatever I’m I’m chauffeuring them. I’m here. So you need to be really clear on what you want to get out of this, and have a very strong why that can kind of take you back to because when the going gets tough and you’re going to want to run away because a client isn’t being not so nice, or you are undercharged, and now you’re feeling it, or you want to go on that vacation, but you got client work to do, so you got to sacrifice things. Like, there are sacrifices, but there are also crazy rewards. Like, I wouldn’t change anything. Emily Reagan 28:42 Yeah, there’s so many perks for me to work at home with a number of kids and the military moving that we’ve had going on. So I agree. But sometimes, like, you could make more money in a corporate setting, but it’s going to be a trade off. And it’s like, really adjust, you know, adjusting for that. Sarah Noked 28:58 Right, And then you would just sell your soul for a nine to five. I’m like, I don’t, I don’t work. I mean, I work a lot, but I work in my flex hours. I can, you know, I’m going to Toronto next week, like, I can do whatever I want to do. And like, I’m just like, so I work a little bit more. I work in the evenings. I’ve never had a problem working hard. Like, that’s never been my problem. Emily Reagan 29:15 Yeah, me too. But then I think about summer. Summer is what clinches it for me. I’m like, No, I want to be home, I might have to wake up and do early, Sarah Noked 29:23 but you plan in advance, and you book time off over the summer, like I take almost all of August off, I take a yacht and go to Greece Emily Reagan 29:31 Oh my God, that’s on my bucket list. Take me Sarah Noked 29:34 I know. Well, maybe I’ll one day make a retreat on a yacht and I’ll sail you guys around. Emily Reagan 29:38 We’ll call it a retreat in a business. Write off. Okay, actually, let’s talk about costs. What a OBM charges. You said maybe a 2k retainer, but like, what is the range there? Sarah Noked 29:48 I would say the range is probably between like and again. You know, I, I really think it depends on your circumstances. But generally, what I’m seeing obms charging, especially accredited obms, anywhere from like 65 Dollar an hour to $200 an hour, depending on the kind of work that you’re doing and and how much experience you have, and also, I think, where the client is at in their business, and what that responsibility looks like, and what that retainer looks like. Now, when I say $2,000 I’m generally looking at about a 20 to 30 hour a month retainer. And I always, always tell anyone who will listen to me that, you know, it’s always better to start hourly for the first 90 days and keep the expectation low and the delivery high and the value high, because you you got to, like, feel out a client. It’s kind of like starting a corporate job as an OBM. It’s not like you get in there, like, maybe as a marketing person, if you’re doing Facebook ads, you get in there, you get the copy, you get the ads up and running. Within a week. As an OBM there’s a very different onboarding process, and we really get into this. Obviously, it’s a big part of OBM school. What that onboarding looks like. We have like, you know, our strategic planning session that we really recommend students do, to really bring the bring yourself up to speed with, like, the vision, the goals, where the business is going, what the kind is like. So, you know, it’s just, it’s an onboarding thing. Emily Reagan 31:09 Well, gossip train here. I have heard over the years many stories of OBMs getting into a business and quitting within two weeks, and… Sarah Noked 31:18 Well that’s because they – Okay. Well, let me tell you why that happens. Emily Reagan 31:21 No, I didn’t mean that bad on them obviously. Sarah Noked 31:24 This happens. You know what? This happens a lot, and it’s because people think that scope based retainers. And there’s another word for scope based retainer. I can’t remember what it is, but like, where you, you know, you just, instead of an hourly rate associated with your retainer, it’s like an open ended retainer, where, because you haven’t really proven your value or gotten clear on what you’re handling now you feel like the bucket that contains all so I hear this a lot from OBS. I sold a client on a $3,000 retainer, and I’m so excited. And I’m like, wow, what? Like, what does that consist of? And they’re like, everything. And like, oh my god, you just sold your soul for $3,000 like, now you can’t get any more clients on your roster. You are like, this empty pit that they will dump all of their misery onto. Like. And I think some people, unfortunately, you know, I don’t even think this is necessarily on purpose, but clients do sometimes take advantage of obms, and they make it look like it’s something, that it’s not like. I’ve gotten into some businesses where I was like, You didn’t even tell me you had a Facebook ads team. They’re like, I forgot. And I was like, but that’s like, a whole thing that I now need to, like, consider and manage and, like, you know, mix into the whole thing here. So think that’s why I really have this very specific onboarding process that I do with clients, so that I don’t risk having to offboard a client after two weeks, because it is costly and it affects profitability. And so I think in a scarcity mindset, we really want to, you want to lock that client down, but I’m like, You got a date before you get married, you got to, like, take things slow and really feel this, because people can very easily, in a 20 minute discovery, call be nice and pretend to be somebody they’re not. And then you get in the back end and you’re like, This is sleazy, scammy AF stuff, and I don’t my moral compass doesn’t align with this. So we I see that a lot too. It’s either like a values and red flag thing, or it’s like, oh my God, I’ve sold my soul to the devil for very too little, no money. That’s why that happens. Emily Reagan 33:14 I’ve also heard of some seven figure business owners and their OBMs crying a lot. So what’s going on at that level? Sarah Noked 33:24 This is why it really sucks as freelancers to work with someone like a No Money Mary Mindset. You know, you get this, like, people who don’t want to spend money on things, or don’t want to spend a certain amount on your retainer. It’s the same thing, you know, when you have, it’s like the opposite ends of the spectrum. On one hand, you have somebody that’s kind of screwing with your, like, financial mindset. But on the other hand, it’s like, you know, sometimes when the vision gets too big, and sometimes obms for their best, you know, they’ll, they’ll take on a client that is just kind of out of their league, to be honest, and they’re making X amount, and they expect you to hit the ground running, and no questions asked, and they’re kind of like, oh. And then what happens when you know you’re stressed out, you cry, I’m not saying I’ve not cried over clients or cried. I cry all the time. You know Emily Reagan 34:06 I cried this morning Sarah Noked 34:07 Yeah, just like, yeah. I mean, I’ll see somebody on Instagram and I’ll start crying like, so I think there’s a lot of stress, and also, so, you know, as somebody who really partners with my clients, like I had once upon a time, a very, very successful entrepreneur who was having a lot of marital problems, and so there were times where she would get on these calls, and because of things that were kind of happening in her personal life, she would lash out at me, you know. And obviously, I’m a professional, I’m not going to take it personally, but if you’re not strategic enough and strong enough, even it can wear you down and make bring you to that, like, low vibration that some clients have. No, they’re not perfect. I’m not gonna say me like, Oh, you’re making $50,000 a month, so you’re, like, amazing. No, you can still be a hot ass mess on the back end. Emily Reagan 34:53 I also think about, like, the structure. And I am not an operations like genius over here, but I feel like a lot of us take on more. And I think at some point we need to say, like, actually, like, we need a department head, like, this is like, it’s like, it’s grown too much, or we need sub manager somehow within this company, and not one person can do it all. And I mean, that’s why they hire us in the first place. It was too much, that’s right. So I don’t know that’s kind of what I was thinking about, but it wasn’t like, about, but it wasn’t like a reflection on them obviously, like they care. Sarah Noked 35:26 Being an entrepreneur is hard. Being an OBM, it’s not an easy job, but the rewards are big. You know? It is. It’s the it’s the trade off, right? Emily Reagan 35:33 Yeah, what do you think business owners think they’re hiring when they get an OBM? Like, what problem are they actually trying to solve? Sarah Noked 35:41 if they’re savvy enough they realize that they don’t have any time in the day, and the solution they’re trying to solve is getting back any amount of time in their day to focus on the things that they really want to do. So this last client that I was talking with the doctor, so he’s actually like, not a pharmacist, but he makes and and creates stuff like a pharmacist would, and he sells it to his clients, and it’s sort of like generic hormones, like, it’s not that’s not what it is like. It’s not sleazy or gross. It’s something really that helps people. I can’t exactly remember, because still, he just had our meeting. I need to demand due diligence, but he knows that if he had more time, he could make that a business that made tons of money because he could distribute it to other doctors and make it more of a thing. And I think it’s when these clients recognize the real, true value of their time and where it needs to be only on that, you know, the 20/80 whatever principle it’s like, that same thing, they see their 20% very clearly. And I don’t think that that happens overnight. As an entrepreneur. It takes time, and it takes honing and owning your skill so that you can really understand where, where your effort is best placed to maximize revenue. So he’s very clear on where his revenue that’s why he’s like, you know, he just was like, ready to work. We got on the call, and he’s like, when can we start? You know, there was like, I was like, I didn’t tell you my retainer is yet. And you’re like, whatever it is, I want to is, I want to do it. I was like, Wow, thank you Chat GPT. I don’t know what you said, but this guy is sold, sold. Emily Reagan 37:08 So how many clients do you have? Sarah Noked 37:10 So I actually match make. So I take, oh, I match them. So with this guy in particular, like, he, you know, he wants to coach with me a little bit. It’s sort of like, again, blurred lines. That’s why I’m not. I’m just doing my due diligence. I’m not making any expectations. But I have a lot of OBMs that are clinician focused, and know the CRMs, and they know how they work. So I’m, I’m looking for somebody in that niche to match with him. Also, he’s in, he’s in, like, I don’t know where he’s in, he’s in the States, far away from where I am. So, you know, while I worked with people in Pacific time. It’s a 12 hour time zone difference for me. No, it’s 10 hours. You see, I still, after 15 years, 20 years, I still, I still can’t tell. I still don’t know. Emily Reagan 37:50 Well, that sounds like a good green flag question. I never thought about it like that, because I talk about the Pareto Principle all the time, like, do you know your 20%? I mean, what would be Sarah Noked 38:01 So this guy’s stuck in the 80% and he’s like, I see it. I want it. I just, I’m, like, taking time off, and I’m like, drowning. And also that it’s not, not everybody’s an Ops person, like you were saying, like, he’s like, I don’t even like doing this. I want to be a doctor. I want to make my clients happy. Like, I don’t want to be managing. You know, all the team members in the systems Emily Reagan 38:20 Voice of Customer here, go off with your own marketing, but when I’m spending too much time in Asana clicking around, I get angry. I’m like, I don’t want to be assigning everyone things. Sarah Noked 38:28 So, right, exactly, yeah. Emily Reagan 38:30 Okay, so what would be Sarah Noked 38:31 Another thing an OBM does is takes the project and puts it into a plan, right? Emily Reagan 38:35 I’m like someone else do that Sarah Noked 38:38 but if you don’t have projects happening and things aren’t moving in your business, you don’t need that, right? Yeah, exactly. A lot of people hire OBMs because they think it’s like, you know, it’s putting like a it’s like, bling for their business, you know? And I’m just like, you have to really, yeah, understand and know that it’s also time consuming for the entrepreneur themselves, the client, to bring on an OBM. It’s not like, you bring on an OBM and, like, poof, everything’s like, magically automated and working and systematized and off your plate. It takes time, and it takes setting really strong expectations. And I think that’s when people cry or when they have to break up prematurely. It’s usually because they’ve, like, set the bar in some bizarre way that has nothing to do with the business or isn’t really, you know, stuff like that. Stuff like that Emily Reagan 39:21 Okay, yeah, and I want to get into your OBM school. What’s in there? A lot of my unicorns have been asking about that. But I do have a question, what is like a big red flag? We talked about, like a green flag as a client being very clear where they want to spend their time? What would be the biggest red flag? Sarah Noked 39:35 Believe it or not, I have people I get on discovery calls with, and they’re like, so I have this idea, or I have this business that I’m building, and I kind of want you to, like, manage everything you know, like, be and I’m like, you know, if it was so easy to start a database of surveyors, for example, don’t you think I would have made this business model myself? Like, you know, you pour your heart like and your sweat and tears into your business. So I think a big red flag is people who are just, you know, kind of want to be like the fly by not fly by night, but they want to have this, like, easy button that they press, and poof the businesses here, I get that a lot, and I talk to OBMs, who talk to people, and obviously, you know, we do our due diligence and we try to do our best on the questionnaire, but these people sneak through and you’re like, No, I can’t do this. I’m I’m going to take the business, once it’s functioning, and streamline it and improve it and automate it so that we can multiply what we’re doing, not to, not to necessarily build it all from scratch. Now that being said, I had a real estate agent that I recently worked with. Very successful real estate agent, wants to build out her, her whole course around teaching real estate agents how to generate leads and so on and so forth. And I was like, okay, that’s different. Because, yes, well, it is a new idea. And, you know, it’s not necessarily generating money right now. So it was a very intense OBM retainer that we took on with a VA. So there’s exceptions, right like, there’s exceptions to things, but, I mean, everybody’s every business is just bag baga Emily Reagan 41:06 Yeah, and it’s like its own rock. It’s like its own project that needs managing. So like, throw in some EOS language there. Do you see anything changing in 2026, with the OBM industry, fractional, more specialized, more hybrid? Sarah Noked 41:20 I don’t know, you know, it’s I feel like the industry never really ceases to amaze me. I do feel like, as as a marketer, I can say I do feel like people are generally gravitating towards relationships and really emphasizing that personal connection and, you know, and nurturing those kinds of things. And I, I believe, and this is something I’ve always said to obms, because, as somebody like, I live in the Middle East, I don’t live in North America, I don’t live in Australia, I don’t live in the UK, where many of my clients are. I never had to meet my clients in person. I’ve designed my business that way, but for me, it’s always been important to, like, attend a conference once in a while, you know, do a virtual event once in a while, like, show up on podcasts, like there’s ways of getting visibility and developing trust with clients that is going to trump AI, basically, is my feeling, because everyone’s scared about AI, and that it’s sort of like, you know, I don’t know. I feel like everything is scary in this world. Of course, AI is going to be scary. I was like, when the Industrial Revolution was happening, or when people started publishing books on mass. Do you think people were like, Oh, my God, my job is going away. No, it’s just innovation, my friends. So I think with the innovation, and I have a lot of, I mean, I use AI, I mean, all the time, every day, for a lot of different things in my business, I have a prompt in the morning that’s like, Hey, Sarah, it’s time to, like, send your like morning prompt on Instagram. Like, I’m, like, you know, using it, like using the agents and like, leveraging it and helping my clients use it too. So I think it’s, you know, AI is an amazing thing. It has been for the last little while. But nothing will trump relationships Emily Reagan 42:53 Yeah. And I think as a OBM, you’re just gonna be managing those agents too. I mean, right, those might be replacing. Tell us about the OBM school. I’ve had some friends go through it. I’ve heard really good things. Who’s the right fit for it? Yeah, how much does it cost? What do you walk away with? I really want my people. I love sending people to the next right step for them, they’ve gotten started. Because, like you said, stepping stones. So fill us in. Sarah Noked 43:18 100% so, yeah. So what is OBM school? So OBM school was, it is, I think, the best, most premium place to get certified as an online business manager. So we have our accreditation program, which was like the full kit and caboodle, getting certified, getting your digital badges. It’s CPD accredited, all the bells and whistles, and it’s a six month, you know, high ticket coaching program that’s, you know, over $6,000 for six months. And then we have an accelerator, which is a smaller, it’s more of a proof of concept type program for somebody wanting to start an OBM business. And I would look at it more as like an OBM business in a box kind of thing in OBM school, I think, more than like the frameworks and the value and, you know, the concepts, because a lot of the times people come into the program because they’re like, I’m already an OBM, but I want to kind of just compare my notes and leverage some of your onboarding stuff, and I’m like, Whatever, whatever works. Yeah, you know, I think ultimately it’s about the community for me and, like, you know, not to sound cheesy, but the most value people get is by just being around other high caliber obms and people who are also building their businesses and reaching new goals and pushing each other. So we have a lot of success with like our accountability pods and our and our networking groups. Because, you know, OBMs, although we’re very kind of lone wolfish behind the scenes, people like, you know, you, you, you connect with your own people. So we’re all wearing our pajamas, right? But, yeah, so, I mean, like, not to be silly, but it really, it’s, it’s an amazing thing that was really birthed out of my own experience of, like, why am I, like, flailing for three years? Like, let’s shorten this learning curve. Let’s get you up to snuff with, like, how to position yourself, how to make this work for yourself. How to price yourself, how to onboard clients, how to make sure that these crazy things don’t happen, so that you can have a profitable business. And that’s really what OBM school is all about. And then I have my agency on the other side of that, where we’re matchmaking our accredited obms, people who have finished the certification, who have gone and become OBM accredited, they get paired and matched with clients, you know, as they come through on our agency side. So that’s also been a very like full circle thing for me. And you know, if they want to learn more, or, you know, understand what it takes to get started. We created a beautiful starter kit for you guys over at obmschool.com/unicorn. So that is something for you guys, you know, it’s just something that we’ve created for the community. If you want to learn more about being an OBM, learn more about what this industry looks like, and I think above anything like, if somebody here is listening and they’re like, oh, this sounds interesting to me. You know, we are happy to hop on a call. My team is happy to hop on a call. You may have got amazing I know you have a community as well. We’ve got our confident OBM community. That’s a free Facebook group. I think it’s like 12,000 strong. I don’t even know how many people are in there anymore. We are like a powerhouse of individuals. And I think the thing I kind of want to leave everybody with here today is like, if you, if there’s a will, there’s a way right, like, as long as you’re like, I want to make this work for myself. I think, I think I if you think you can make this work. You can make this work for yourself. Whether you do a marketing freelance, whether you call yourself an OBM, it’s the providing these services to individuals in need that will never go away. Like AI is not going to take that all away from us. Streamline it, make it better, maybe make it a little bit more niche, but it’s all good. Emily Reagan 46:40 Yeah, yeah. And I just think about anyone listening who’s like, I think I’m already doing this. Yeah, being an assistant was never attractive to me. I never would have bought a VA course. You know, I also have an MBA, like, I have, like, really cool. Sarah Noked 46:53 We’re, I think we, like, jive, like that Emily Reagan 46:55 Yeah, you were in development. I was a communications director working with the development director, and I just was like, I know there’s something more. And sometimes we do get started in the marketing mail room, but I think it’s so cool. Like, yeah, we’ve taken on those first clients. Sometimes we learned some lessons, but then we realized, like, Oh, this is really powerful, what I’m doing and what I’m bringing to the table, and I don’t know, do you have anything for somebody who’s like, in the middle of the work right now, thinking I could do this. I think I’m doing this already. Are there any like moments? Sarah Noked 47:27 Yeah, like so we have, we always have events like OBM week, and we have lots of tips in our starter kit, but I really want them to take stock of their transferable skills. This is what I didn’t do in corporate. I was like, I’m starting from square one as a freelancer, and I was like, I’m just like, I’m good. I want to make this as difficult for myself as possible, instead of, like, leaning into my skills. So I think for a lot of us, it’s very hard for whatever reason, to be honest about our strengths. And then, you know, take, like, create a brag file for yourself. I tell my OBMs to do this all the time. Like, keep track of, like, your wins in your corporate job, or things you’ve accomplished or and start to sort of tie those things back. So if you’re really great at, like, managing the team, and you know, people call on you in a team meeting, and you’re a leader, maybe you maybe that’s part of what you’re offering is as an OBM, and you lead with that, instead of leading with marketing, or leading with launch, for example, or leading with something that’s very foreign. And I would say, also, there’s no good time to do this. I think you must say that all the time, like, I was, like, pregnant. I had moved across the country. I had no money. My first office, I’m kidding you, was my was my covered porch. And clients would be like, what’s that noise? And be like, Look, it’s raining outside. It would be like, pouring rain. And I would be, like, sitting in the dark, like, you know, on some weird because this was ages ago, you know, on some like, Skype call or something Emily Reagan 48:49 So funny. I know, I wish I had known this world existed, but, like, I started at a different time. It was, it was early, and so I think what a privilege to have you on this podcast like giving people the shortcut, even the knowledge, right? Sarah Noked 49:03 I feel like I’m a little starstruck. I love chatting with you, and you know, I’m just, I really think that we are leading the path on at least inspiring some of these people to realize that they have what it takes to be able to lead their life by design how they want, whatever that looks like, even if it’s surfing twice a week, whatever, yes, every morning, whatever. Emily Reagan 49:24 I really see the worth of their work and know, like, oh my gosh, if I can bring project management skills to this, like, I’m already a lot Sarah Noked 49:32 of people doing project management and corporate own, it don’t be like, well, it was just in like, no, it’s enough. It’s enough. Emily Reagan 49:39 Yeah, oh my gosh, thank you. This was so fun. We will connect with you. The best place to shout you out is where, where are you hanging out? Sarah Noked 49:47 Instagram, you know, the gram, anywhere, you know. Emily Reagan 49:52 Okay, awesome. And we’ll link to that starter kit. I think that’ll be so good. Thank you. All right, Sarah, thanks for coming on. Sarah Noked 49:59 Bye! Emily Reagan 50:00 If today’s conversation sparks something in you, if you saw yourself in an OBM role, if you’re realizing you’re already doing half of the work, go grab Sarah’s OBM starter kit. Just go to obmschool.com/unicorn use my affiliate link please. I’d love to get credit, and it will walk you through the skills and responsibilities the next steps to see if you’re a good fit for this role, and of course, check out her OBM school again, plugging my affiliate link, because that’s the way the online world works. It’s there. If you need real training, you need structure, you need a legit career path. Sometimes we just need guidance and we need affirmation, and we need the permission to do the role and just make sure we’ve covered our bases and we’re doing our clients well. We’re bringing our best self. You want real deal mentoring, you want accountability, you want a certification, and you want to get listed and matched in her agency. The OBM school is the gold standard. All her links, all my affiliate links, are in the show notes. If you’re doing the marketing work, I’d love to have you in our community. The Digital Marketer’s Workgroup is where we continue to grow our business, to put our best self out there. Get better with our services. Network with other service providers to get job referrals. It is your professional development community for the freelance world. Love to see you inside. Application is in the show notes below. All right, I’ll see you in the next episode.